Investor Conversations with David Garner

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Episode Transcript

Kaaren Hall is Founder and CEO at UDirect Services, a self-directed IRA custodian with $750 million in private investor retirement funds under management. She is also an accomplished investor in her own right, and runs the Orange County Real Estate Investors Association in California.

In this call, Kaaren and Garnaco CEO, David Garner, discuss looming legislation which, if passed, would see the investment choices of self-directed investors severely limited, and could also spell financial disaster for those of us already holding a wide range of alternative assets in our retirement accounts.

If you have a self-directed IRA, you absolutely NEED to be aware of this potentially devastating new legislation, and in this call Kaaren spells out exactly what the consequences could be, and most importantly, exactly what YOU can do about it right now!


David Garner:    So fantastic. We are here with Karen Hall of you direct services, um, kind of I’ll flip straight over to you. Why didn’t you tell all watches listeners, subscribers, um, who you all on, what it is you do? What is you direct do? So we get an idea of your [00:00:30] place in the marketplace.

Kaaren Hall:        Oh, thanks. Thank you so much. First, uh, you direct IRA services. What we do is we help people take their IRA, uh, and invest it outside of the stock market. So, you know, alternative assets like real estate, uh, private placements, precious metals, uh, buying, uh, performing and non-performing debt. An IRA could be the bank and lend money. So it’s alternative assets not correlated to the stock market.

David Garner:    Yeah. Most of my clients invest in our private lending program with some form [00:01:00] of self-directed account, may a solo 401k or self-aware or one of the iterations thereof, right? Yeah.

Kaaren Hall:        Yeah.

David Garner:    And you’ve grown that business. I mean, it’s a big business, right? You’ve got a lot of assets under management.

Kaaren Hall:        We do. We do. So we started 12 years ago. We recently celebrated our 12 year anniversary. Um, from, you know, people would say, how many accounts do you have? And I would say, um, 10, six, you know, but now it’s how many, it’s like 6,000, so it’s better. Um, and we have three [00:01:30] quarters of a billion under management today, so it’s much better.

David Garner:    So that’s all private money, private individuals, families, individuals, people with W2 jobs, self-employed people just folk, right?

Kaaren Hall:        Correct. Correct. We don’t have any billion dollar IRAs, like you’ve may have heard of in the news. In fact, the department of treasury did it, did a, a study once Mitt Romney came out with his large IRA and discovered that it’s really around 400 people in all of the United States of America who have [00:02:00] accounts of that size. So it doesn’t affect that those huge accounts don’t affect many people

David Garner:    That is still a lot of people with a lot of money, right. That’s a disproportionate amount of wealth in a very small amount of people. I remember seeing something in the news once Mitt Romney, his wife was talking, I think it was a kind of for the people of the people’s speech. And she was talking about how they didn’t have any money when he first started out. But luckily they had some shares to sell, well, that’s not real world. That’s, that’s, uh, you know, you had some shares to, so you didn’t have no money at [00:02:30] all. Right. So there’s definitely these kinds of people are I think, a little bit out of touch, but you deal with literally everyone, anyone that’s got a retirement account, right. They could have 10 grand in there. They could have $10 million in this.

Kaaren Hall:        True. Yeah. The barrier to entry is very small. All you have to have is earned income in order to contribute to a retirement account. And so that that’s the simple barrier to entry.

David Garner:    Okay. Um, so what I mean, you’ve already kind of covered what your clients invest in. It’s pretty much anything. That’s not the stock market. Right?

Kaaren Hall:        Pretty much [00:03:00] when the IRS came out with these, uh, IRAs was 1975, it was president Gerald Ford at the time he said, and I, uh, the IRS came out with the rules and said that an IRA can invest in really anything except life insurance contracts and collectibles. So anything except, um, and then, so that’s what the IRS says, but then it goes down to the custodial level and every custodian can decide what assets are we call them administratively feasible. You know, what kind of assets are, is the custodian willing to custody, for example, [00:03:30] um, oh gosh, what, you know, let’s pick something like maybe a race horse, a race horses and asset, or it could be a liability, but it could also be an asset. And so that’s technically an investment. And so it’s technically allowed in an IRA. Some, uh, IRA custodians will allow them some say that race horses are not administratively feasible. That smelly in the office.

David Garner:    Yeah. I mean, that’s a real niche, right. I suppose people are going to be scared of it. I like, I I’ve, I’ve come across IRA custodians [00:04:00] who won’t allow notes just straight up real estate notes. Um, because they’re very specific. They like, you can buy a house and that’s it. Or you can buy this particular thing and that’s it.

Kaaren Hall:        Right. Well, I mean, w w when a winter, a note is, is secured, well, then that’s great. What’s better than a secured note. Either you’re paid or you get the property. That’s pretty great. And I know a lot of custodian, but it’s the unsecured notes, um, that, where there’s, where there can be a fuss, but we, we allow them, uh, we have our account holders sign a hold harmless. [00:04:30] So making sure they know what they’re doing, because if they lose their value, um, you don’t get to just write it off. If you have a loss, you pay tax on that loss. Um, and it’s, yeah.

David Garner:    I mean, the whole point is the clues in the name, right. Self-directed people have a choice, freedom.

Kaaren Hall:        Okay. If your IRA loses money, um, then you don’t pay tax on it. You simply just lose the asset and, and you don’t pay tax on it, so.

David Garner:    Okay. Good stuff. So the reason that radio wanting to speak to you we’ve spoken before you were very [00:05:00] kind enough to invite me to your speak to your real estate group a little while ago. I think it was about three in the morning, my time that was fun. That knocked my sleep cycle out for about a week. Um, but I wanted to talk to you about this act. That is, um, it’s a bill from the ways and means committee. Like we talked about it very briefly before we went live, I guess. Um, so the act is, um, I guess [00:05:30] it’s designed to fund in part, the reconciliation act from Biden three and a half trillion dollars. So they’re thinking, okay, where are we going to pull that from on the, the, what they’ve done is the same as any government’s done in the history of governments has gone. Ah, the middle class is they’ve got a couple of quid, we’ll have it off them. So as I understand it, with my tiny brain, there are a couple of parts [00:06:00] of that, uh, potentially really impactful. Um, and it’s around what you can invest in. Um, and, uh, the, the structure of those things and potentially who can invest in what, right. Am I on the right track with that?

Kaaren Hall:        Um, you, you are, and as a courtesy here, I’ve posted the bill. So the, the house ways and means committee proposal, which came out September 13th, and since then has been, you know, as, as you come in here, it’s been a subject of, [00:06:30] of a lot of scrutiny. It says a lot of things, and it doesn’t just apply to IRAs. One of the things it says is that the IRS will be appropriated $80 billion to enforce its rules. Now it says it nicely so that they can help people voluntarily comply. I mean, whatever. So that’s one of the things that’s in this house ways and means committee proposal. There are two specific areas that, that, um, appealed or, or actually not appeal. [00:07:00] Uh, but, but, um, you know, our, our, about our fact IRAs, one of them is saying that if you are an investor and you have to prove a credited status, in other words, that you have a certain net worth, um, which is, you know, typically high or in our high income that you were allowed to invest.

Kaaren Hall:        So if you have to be an accredited investor to invest in something, now your IRA can no longer hold that asset. Not only can you, can your IRA no longer purchase that asset going forward [00:07:30] beginning December 31st, 2021. But if your IRA presently owns an asset like that, you have to remove that asset from your IRA. You have two years to do it. Well, that is very problematic. So let’s think about there’s about $118 billion in self-directed IRAs. You know, that’s an estimate about, uh, probably about 3 million will be affected by this. So what happens is that wonder it’s supply and demand. So now [00:08:00] you have millions of people who have private equity in their self-directed IRA. So what are they supposed to do? So maybe they go to the asset sponsor and they say, look, I have this, you know, this private interest in your company I need to sell.

Kaaren Hall:        And the private investor says, well, all right, but I just spent your money on this building. And so I don’t have it to give it back to you. So the private or the asset sponsor, can’t give it back to you unless they really sell or have a liquidity event so that the value of [00:08:30] private equity will go down because there’ll be a lot of people trying to sell it. If the asset sponsors are made to sell buildings will then the value of buildings will go down because there’ll be a lot of them. If that’s a path out of this, there’ll be a lot of people selling buildings and they’ll see, you know, supply and demand. But thirdly, which is the worst, cause it’s not a tax, the rich proposal at all. I

David Garner:    Know this is, I’ll tell you what this is. This is a, let’s get everybody. Who’s not rich to sell the assets [00:09:00] to the rich and knock down prices. Cause they’re the only ones who can, are going to be allowed to own them. Correct?

Kaaren Hall:        Correct. So, so exactly. So the middle-class who owned these, these, uh, assets,

David Garner:    For example,

Kaaren Hall:        It’s syndication, there’s so many things that’s called us called a syndication, a private placement that’s called like maybe a reg D offering. It’s all the same thing. It means all of them mean the same thing. Oh, I had an, I invested with a subscription agreement. You know, that’s part of a private placement. Private equity is another word for it. So [00:09:30] all of these different terms, really for the same asset class. Um, so again, so what’s going to happen is that if people can’t sell it or liquidate this asset out of their account, they’re going to be forced to pay income tax on the value of that asset. All right. Well, that’s bad, but what’s worse is that they’re going to have to find a valuator to give them a value of that asset. Good luck getting it aligned because there aren’t that many evaluators that specialize in this area and it to crank out that many valuations by the deadline [00:10:00] is not going to happen. It’s superhuman. It’s right. It’s impossible. So there’s not going to happen. It’s going to, it’s going to harm. I mean, I, and I get to, maybe somebody’s a 30 years old and they only stocks and they have the potential, even if they’re damaged, they can get their life back and rebuild. But there are people who are in retirement who have assets like this, who are,

David Garner:    They rely on them. I spoke to one of my clients. She’s an amazing lady, Melissa. Um, she, um, unfortunately lost her husband, Larry, [00:10:30] who I got on. Great with, not that long ago. So she’s taken over their 401k, their self-directed 401k and she’s sharp as a tack. Right? So I talked to her about this legislation. I mentioned it and she’s like, well, that’s most of my retirement account and she’s retired. I said, what is she going to do now? I’ll tell you what, when you saying this, what spring? Two things spring to mind, I’ve got to go back to, when you say voluntarily comply, what spring to mind them was like, yeah. Like George Bush got Saddam Hussein to voluntarily comply. Um, [00:11:00] like that kind of voluntarily compliant.

Kaaren Hall:        There’s a similarity there. Yeah.

David Garner:    Yeah, exactly. Um, but if they, if I tell you what, if I were the manager of an institutional investor, I’ve got the braces, the suspenders for it. So screw it. Let’s say, I am, I can do a pension scheme. I’m allowed to own those kinds of assets, right? When this law, if, if this law kicked in, I would be going to all of those sponsors and saying, Hey, look, you know, you’ve, you’ll, [00:11:30] uh, syndicates, junior partners, or your silent partners. Your investors have put in, let’s say $10 million. I’ll give you $8 million for that share and take it off their hands. Cause no one else is gonna, and the sponsor is going to go to the investors and say, look, you’ve got to get it out of your, um, uh, your IRA. We’ve had this offer, let’s put it to a vote and I’ll be gone, sucking up assets from people.

David Garner:    And it’s just a transfer of wealth from the middle classes up to institutions. [00:12:00] That’s what I’d be doing. If I was an innocent institutional investor, I’d be like, well, I’m, I’ll take them then. And I’ll take them and knock down prices because otherwise you’re going to get taxed to hell. And it will come to a point where people will be like, well, a bed in the hand is worth two in the Bush. I’ll take the haircut that happens. It just sounds like a, an asset grab from that point of view and a tax grab from, from another point of view,

Kaaren Hall:        You made such a great point. When you were talking about your friend with a 401k, I should, I really have to mention this. And is that, that this particular, [00:12:30] that’s a proposal that’s going, you know, it’s I suppose a bill now. So, um, but it doesn’t really impact 401ks as much it’s IRAs that it really impacts it impacts 401ks and that there will be a ceiling, uh, for contributions, uh, as ceiling for value. And it impacts 401ks in the sense that you won’t be able to convert to Roth. That’s another thing that this proposal does is that 10 years ago, 11 years ago, there was a, uh, an act called CHIPRA the tax increase, reconciliation and [00:13:00] prevention act. Okay. When something, right when something says it prevents tax, what does it do

David Garner:    Usually put in Texas?

Kaaren Hall:        Correct. So when Tempra was literally an act of Congress that allowed people to do what they now call the backdoor, IRA, Congress created it and suddenly it was bad, bad, bad act. And so this is correcting what Tempra did, which is allowing people to convert to Rob, because a few people became extremely wealthy doing it by following the rules, [00:13:30] right. It was sort of like, hi, play this game, played a win. We did well now we have to cut you down. So some, you know, I mean, it’s, that, that might be a fair correlation, but wait, if your friend has a 401k,

David Garner:    It’s a solo 401k, it’s a self-directed account

Kaaren Hall:        And, and 401ks either way self-directed or not, or 401ks and not IRAs. So there’s still some question on how this will come out in the wash, you know, after it goes to the house, after it goes to the Senate, what it will look like.

David Garner:    And that’s a fair point, actually, I think one of your emails, you said [00:14:00] both from what you hear, the people voting on this, haven’t got a clue what’s in it,

Kaaren Hall:        Right? That’s literally true. So I sit on a board of directors for a lobby for our industry, and it’s called the retirement industry trust association. So like anything else in Washington, it has an acronym Rita, right? Rita is the name of the group. So we have lobbyists these attorneys and they are so sharp and wonderful. And they have great relationships with the house ways and means committee and congressmen and their staff are Congress people [00:14:30] and their staff. And so they do a really wonderful job for us. So they were meeting with the house ways and means, can be just before this came out. And when this came out B the provisions and affect IRAs were completely a shock. There was no indication to them that they were, that, um, proposals would be put into the, uh, into this, I guess, what is now a bill? So they’re completely shocked. So what, so then now people have gone to Congress and said, what is this? What are you doing? Do you see the may [00:15:00] perhaps unintended consequences of what this is? And some of the congressmen are saying, what’s in that bill. In fact, one of

David Garner:    Them it’s going to affect them. They’ve got,

Kaaren Hall:        Well, you know, they have a pension and it won’t affect them if they have a pension, because it doesn’t affect pensions. It affects IRAs. But one of the congressmen literally said to it, to our lobbyist, she says, look, one of my constituents called and said that he’s trying to build this building. And it’s, and this proposal will wreck his funding and you know, what’s happening. And so the Congressman was genuinely [00:15:30] concerned, what’s going on? And so the lobbyists explained it to him. And he said that he had no idea that provision was in the bill. It was kind of like stuck in, you know, in the bottom, in the middle, toward the bottom, at the, at the last, at the last moment. So we’re making them aware. I’m sure, by now they’re aware it’s been two weeks. Um, and so I’ve done everything I can to create a grassroots campaign, to have everyone, um, to send an email to their representatives and say, this is how it will impact me. Cause that that’s what’s, that’s what

David Garner:    Absolutely. [00:16:00] Cause it’s not just a thing. That’s a fair point. It’s not just the people owning IRAs, right? It’s not just normal folk. It’s the people that are raising money. Right. If you’re raising, if you say, and people kind of misunderstand this, yeah. Everybody invests to make money, but those investments generally improve things. Like you take a run, like what I do, I’ll go out and buy the worst house on the street. Right. So I raised some money from, from a private lender. They loan me some money out of their IRA or the 401k or whatever. [00:16:30] And I take that crappy property that’s and like we, I sent Christina my, uh, my partner out to have a look at a property the other day. And she literally came out, covered in fleas. Like some of these houses are gross, but we take them, we buy them and we make them nice. We improve the street, we improve the house, we turn it into an owner, occupied property as well. We take it out of that landlord cycle. And even if this were to affect me, I don’t think it’s going to, but if this were to affect that funding source, I wouldn’t be able to do that anymore. So then you just got flee house [00:17:00] instead. Right.

Kaaren Hall:        So we’ll be able to do what you do. Won’t be impacted. I mean, because unless someone has to be accredited to invest in your project. So that’s good. This does not decimate self,

David Garner:    Uh, great for me because people are still gonna want to home for their capital. But like in general terms, just on a, an ethical level, it just doesn’t sit right with me at all.

Kaaren Hall:        And you bring up another good point that I really should point out is that it doesn’t decimate, self-directed IRAs, but it’s really two asset classes that have effects besides private equity, [00:17:30] where you have to have an accredited investor status. There’s something about like a 10% rule that’s written in here. And so it affects something that we call a B sometimes called the checkbook IRA, or also called the IRA owned LLC. So real quick, what this is, you have an IRA has money in it. You have a third party create a special purpose LLC for just made for this purpose. It’s really, if it’s a single member LLC, it’s, it’s passed through and not taxed good. The IRA buys a hundred percent of the initial shares of that LLC. [00:18:00] And then we fund the checking account of the LLC, if you follow it. So now the IRA owns an LLC, the account holder owns it all.

Kaaren Hall:        So they can take the checking account other LLC and write checks for their IRA investments. Right. All right. So then the IRS has known about this for quite some time. Um, because we, we tell them we have conferences in Washington, DC. We invite them to say, how can we work with you? You know, tell us what we can do is do you know, tell us how we can, you know, do, do our job better and how can we help [00:18:30] to be aware of fraud and support? So what they’re going to do is basically eliminate this IRA owned LLC. Fine. So it’s the same thing with the private equity. So really probably millions of people have an IRA owned LLC. They’ll have two years just like the people with product private equity to do this. They’ll have to have a valuator value, all the assets in their LLC and transfer those assets into the IRA and they won’t be taxed.

Kaaren Hall:        So that’s good. They, they, they, they have [00:19:00] a benefit there of not being taxed, uh, if they can do that. Um, but the other thing too, is that, um, if, if they can’t liquidate or if they run into some sort of, uh, baby, they get in line with everybody else trying to get a valuation, they can’t get it in time. Something like this happens. It will be a real fuss for them too. And they’ll have to pay ultimately pay tax on the value of all their assets in their LLC. But at least the people with the IRA owned LLC are in a better position that people with private equity, because they have a chance to keep it in the IRA and keep it [00:19:30] tax protected.

David Garner:    That’s it? None of it makes any sense, but how much money with are they going to do they think that they were going to raise from, from this?

Kaaren Hall:        You know, I, I CA I can’t tell you precisely. I just really can’t, but I know 3 trillion is, is unprecedented. Isn’t it? I mean,

David Garner:    Yeah, a couple of years ago we wouldn’t have, we you’d never hear the word trillion. You just wouldn’t hear it. It sounds like some, like a little two year old little girl will be like, I want to train him billion squillion sweets [00:20:00] is what, that’s what it sounds like. Right. And that’s now that’s, that’s what they’re talking about in Congress and in the Senate, like, it’s just like, it’s a couple of million dollars.

Kaaren Hall:        Yes. I know it it’s, it is not, um, a comforting thought.

David Garner:    Uh, no, no, it really isn’t. Um, so I mean, the upshot of it is this is a bell. It’s not law. It’s gotta be voted on. What’s the political process that it goes through for people like me, that really haven’t got a clue.

Kaaren Hall:        Sure. And so, um, it goes to the house and it goes to the Senate and they [00:20:30] will review it and vote. And that’s what’s happening right now. And so, um, the, and so together, of course, they make up Congress, Congress recesses, December 10th. So this whole thing, they, this whole entire multi trillion dollar package expected to be decided upon by December 10th when Congress adjourns for the Christmas season, Merry Christmas to us, because we just got taxed. Yeah. So enjoy your last Christmas. [00:21:00] I don’t know, you know, I just, I, these are my opinions. So, um, but anyway, that’s how, that’s how it happened. So, so between now and December 10th, it goes through the house of representatives. It goes to the Senate, they’ll each vote on it. And then ultimately it goes to the, you know, the president to be assigned it to.

David Garner:    So the most worrying thing I think about all of this is this is just one thing that they’re doing right from the conversations that I’m having. And this is all anecdotal. They’re messing around with inheritance tax [00:21:30] that messing around, um, the amount of money you can add before the person giving you that money as to, um, give you a 10 99, they’re messing around with how much money you can withdraw from, say your money market account before having to report it to the IRA they’re messing around with, okay, we’re going to privatize cryptocurrencies. Well, good luck. Like it’s just from all corners. And it’s not like Jeff Bezos is probably paying less tax now than he ever has. It’s not the super rich [00:22:00] that are paying it. It’s everybody else. And this is what, you know, unfortunately the issue is from my kind of very privileged ivory tower across the pond. There’s so much kind of, um, one-upmanship that no, everybody’s kind of forgotten that. Hang on. We’re all in this together. And that the people that the, the societies that have survived, haven’t been the ones that fought each other. They’ve been the ones that have cooperated [00:22:30] because while everybody’s fighting each other, they’re slipping all this stuff through. And ultimately you’re not going to be able to earn any money without it just disappearing. And then you invest it and it disappears again. It’s like the amazing disappearing dollar, right?

Kaaren Hall:        When you, when you add all these things together, it does paint a pretty bleak picture. I’ll give you that. It’s a, yeah. And, and, um, you know, we can get political or we could not get political, but

David Garner:    I

Kaaren Hall:        Mean, not the middle class

David Garner:    Personally, I’m politically homeless. Right. So [00:23:00] I believe in some conservative stuff, I believe in, like, I believe in a home with two parents, um, I, you know, family values, things like that, but I also believe in women’s rights and gay rights and all that kind of stuff. And like, because if we talk for more than 30 seconds, I’m going to say something that offends someone from both sides, politically homeless. And I think this is part of the problem. You’ve got a two-party system and, and the last two rounds of, of [00:23:30] presidents that you’ve had this one, the last one, like polar opposites, is that the best of 300, 400 million people, right? Like this last political race,

Kaaren Hall:        Even the last political, yeah.

David Garner:    The last, especially the last political race, that’s it? That’s it. And I listened to something today. Um, the there’s this Tulsi Gabbard lady, right? So she’s a veteran, [00:24:00] she’s impeccable great leader, but she’s from the left, but I reckon she’d probably pull votes from the right as well, because, you know, she’s, she’s that kind of person, Hillary Clinton colder Russian assets, and nobody pulled her up on it. She’s a serving military officer and Hillary Clinton a lot. Yeah. She’s a Russian asset. What?

Kaaren Hall:        Well, it seems that whatever people say doesn’t get much of a reaction anyway, it’s no, it’s, um, it’s very frightening. And then you throw out, let’s just throw a code in there that seemed passports [00:24:30] will be the end of civilization.

David Garner:    Well, this is it. You know, you’ve seen possible you can’t shop, you can’t use that business unless we tell you, you can’t work. Unless we tell you it’s a very dangerous precedent. I don’t think in the history of, of, of, uh, any kind of political system has, uh, um, uh, power been given to the powers that be, and then they’ve gone to know what emergency over, have that, how about that? That’s never happened. Okay. Well, we’ll keep that in case it happens again, and then we’ll modify a bit and now [00:25:00] it serves our purposes

Kaaren Hall:        And then it creates the only war. It takes it back. You’re right. And I don’t see it. I don’t see coming back from this. Um, for example, like we were speaking about Spain when we are offline and they’re doing amazing human work that are beautiful work. And I just took my daughter to Spain, uh, at the end of August for her to go to school. Oh, wonderful things. Right. Improve the world in all these lovely ways. Well, what I’ve learned is that I returned on August 30th, September 6th, a week later. [00:25:30] Um, I could no longer got not vaccinated. So I couldn’t, I now cannot go see my daughter in Spain without a vaccination. That’s a violation of my human rights. I don’t have, I I’m, I test negative. I’m not sick. I, there’s no reason there’s no real, really valid reason why I couldn’t travel. I’m not a threat to anyone I’ve proven, you know, medically that I’m not a threat to anyone. Why must I have, why is what’s, what is it about this? So, you know, we’re, we’re digressing off of

David Garner:    Sure. Paul [00:26:00] and possible the same thing. This bill is a result of that political mindset of, we’re just, we, you know, you’re not responsible enough to look after yourself and make your own decisions. So we’re going to do it for you. So we need more of your tax dollars to do that.

Kaaren Hall:        So what happens when the COVID passport then says that you can’t go to the grocery, or you can’t even use your credit card or debit card, unless you have a vaccination. I mean, so are we going there? And if we are, I think that that would be frightening. And how does this house ways and means committee, bill [00:26:30] and all the other things that we’re looking at? How does that play into a larger agenda is something that we each have to read about and ask ourselves. Yeah,

David Garner:    Absolutely. You know, I think we, we don’t need to wake up a little bit and just make sure that we don’t give away too much. And I think he’s really valuable the work that you’re doing, making sure that people can do something right. In terms of this ways and means, um, committee, bill, they can do something they can have their voice heard. So you’ve got a page on your website, which I think is you [00:27:00] forward slash act hyphen. Now,

Kaaren Hall:        Uh, you direct IRA. In fact, I will. Um, what I’ll do is I’ll put this other article up here in your chat. Um,

David Garner:    When I share the recording of this, I’ll make sure people have that link very good.

Kaaren Hall:        And this is a, it goes to our website and it, and it gives a, um, a full accounting of what this, uh, proposal will do with IRAs. And it gives you links to the house ways and means committee bill also a way for, um, American citizens to find their [00:27:30] representative, their Senator, and to email them directly, you know, write them, call them, go visit them better. You know, the more people that are in their face about this, the more

David Garner:    Right, right.

Kaaren Hall:        Yeah. And yeah, squeaky wheel. Exactly. And, and, and do that. And that’s what we need to do. I know a lot of people who are picking up the phone and calling them and saying, what are you doing? Um, but just to reach out and that’s, that’s, that’s the power that we have today.

David Garner:    Absolutely. Uh, the, I think probably everything [00:28:00] that we’ve talked about right now, the most shocking thing is that the people that are supposed to vote on this, haven’t got a clue what’s in it. So, you know, it’s, it’s, America’s job to tell them, which seems a little backwards. Surely they should know, but you know, that’s the whole point. If they knew maybe they wouldn’t vote. So, so positively.

Kaaren Hall:        Well, there were some people that, yeah, they didn’t know straight away because I mean, a lot of people hadn’t read it and I think they probably didn’t expect it. So, uh, but I’m sure that we’ve made them aware of it by now. And two weeks in, should we make them very aware with, with all of the lobbies [00:28:30] and at different people, um, you know, making, making noise and, and that’s how, that’s how we make a difference. I really hope we push the needle on this.

David Garner:    Yeah. Well, and this is the thing, this is the beauty about, uh, having, uh, a democratic system. You can, you don’t go need to burn buildings to have your voice heard. You can pick up the phone, you know, there’s a system in place to voice your opinion.

Kaaren Hall:        There is today. So we should, we should definitely take advantage of that. Um, uh, yeah.

David Garner:    Right. Okay. Listen, [00:29:00] brilliant. I, I know it’s early in your morning, although it’s kind of getting towards my home time, time now. I really appreciate you coming on and talking about this and clarifying exactly what it is and what people can do about it. I know we had a ton of interest from my priority investor list, uh, from people when I put my email out, they were like, huh, what? So I, hopefully this has given people a little bit of clarity as to what is in the mix and what they can do about it. Um, and I’ll post [00:29:30] make sure I post a link to your website as well. So they can say a little bit about what you guys do. And as always, if somebody is looking to set up an IRA, you feel that people to go to. Right.

Kaaren Hall:        Absolutely. And I, and I, I’m going to emphasize again here that what the bill impacts is private placements and the IRA owned LLC. It does not impact directly investing in real estate. It doesn’t impact making a loan from your IRA. As long as you don’t have to be accredited to make that loan. It doesn’t impact investing in precious metals with your IRA or buying, performing a non-performing debt, [00:30:00] even limited partnerships and things like that are still allowed buying raw land and things that many, many assets are still allowed to self-directed IRA. It’s these two rather large asset classes, however that are. Yeah.

David Garner:    And, and th th they are prevalent like there, and you just have to go on LinkedIn and almost everyone now has an apartment syndicator. My grand cravat has got a lot to answer for, so everybody’s doing it now. Um, and as a lot of people investing in them, a lot of people can work. If you’ve got a good [00:30:30] sponsor, they can work out to be good investments. Right.

Kaaren Hall:        But like that, or may have to start finding new sources of private equity, uh, or may have to be replacing the private equity that they presently hold. And so maybe you’re right. Maybe it will be still pennies on the doll, uh, pennies on the dollar. If we’re back in January, then we’ll see what the world looks like. Then.

David Garner:    Well, I, if you just said to me in December, 2019, what’s the world going to look like in six months, I’d have been very, very wrong with whatever I said, because I would not have said that we would all be sat in our houses going, well, [00:31:00] this is rubbish. Isn’t it like we can’t call what

Kaaren Hall:        Well, quarantine the web, the healthy, when do we, when have we ever in the history of humanity quarantined the healthy,

David Garner:    I mean, I guess the last, let me say this and the last thing, cause you mentioned Spain. I just flew out to, um, obviously my wife, as you just mentioned is in and out of Spain. So we had to get our vaccinations for it. But, but the crazy thing is, and this, this will scare the bejesus out of you. Cause every, every American I’ve mentioned this to is like work. So, um, we, we [00:31:30] flew out to Lanza. Razzi one of the Canary islands. I had to have, um, a COVID test before I went and then you get a certificate so you can fly. And that was great. So we went there, we went, uh, did the, all I did the vacation thing. My wife was working. Um, and then when we came back, we had to have a test before we flew fair enough. So the guy came around to our sort of Airbnb and he did the test and whatever, and we were both negative and that was brilliant, but what we have to do, and this is the UK government rules we have [00:32:00] to purchase from their approved suppliers, a two day test and, uh, an eight day test, right?

David Garner:    So they get posted to your house. You have to show proof before they let you into the country. You have to show proof that you bought them. Um, so we ordered these things and we went home and we get home. We have to quarantine for 10 days, even though our test that we took before we flew is negative. So we have to quarantine for 10 days. If Lanzotti was in a reckless country, we’d have had to appointed in a government hotel for two and a half grand. [00:32:30] Right. But luckily it wasn’t. So we’re at home. We both have the luxury of being able to be at home. So we’re at home for 10 days. So there’s two things. Number one, if we’d have paid more money, we could have done a test at day five. And if that was negative, we could have ended our quarantine, but we still would have had to have taken the test at day eight.

David Garner:    If we hadn’t have paid the extra money, even if our eight day test was negative, we’d still have had to a quarantine for an extra two days. So that’s one thing, but this is the scary thing on [00:33:00] day one, I get a knock on my front door and it’s a guy from the government or a subcontractor checking. The, I was at home and checking my ID. I got a dude from the government turned up and he was like, are you in? I’m like, well, unless it’s a hologram then yeah. I’m in where abiding by our currency. Fortunately we could. Um, but I spoke to, uh, there’s a guy that runs a car, you’ll laugh, a sausage dog hotel. And you know, I’ve got these too many dash ones, right? Yeah. When we got away, this, this [00:33:30] guy he’s got, he has like 15 sessions at a time.

David Garner:    And his little hotel, I was speaking to him and he had some friends that had a similar situation to us. They didn’t answer the door they were in, but they got fined a thousand pounds because they didn’t answer the door to the, the guy subcontracted from the government that was checking that they were in. That’s scary. That’s really scary that they they’re like, unless you’re at home, you’re paying a thousand pounds, just like 13, $1,400. So what are we going to do about that? I think that’s a, that’s a thought too. Yeah. [00:34:00] Yeah. Well, I didn’t, I, I did. I moved to Costa Rica, maybe it’s crazy, but listen, thank you so much for your time. Once again, I really, really appreciate it. I know. Um, my little crew of investors are gonna really appreciate the clarity on the situation as well. Um, and, uh, yeah, we’ll, we’ll speak soon for sure. Take care.